Curse

SilvanNosty · Apr 02, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Well, this is my third Build I will be...building. It's a wee bit 'spensive, but I'm sure it'll last for a few years. So, here's the parts list.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119138 [Case]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817814012 [PSU]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813186163 [Mobo]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115202 [CPU]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227395 [Disk]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227393 [Disk1(Optional)]
+
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822116058 [Disk2(Optional)]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227365 [Ram]
OR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148252 [Ram]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130446 [GPU]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151173 [Media]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608007 [Cooling]
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835100007 [Thermal Paste]

Total Price: $2,445.97 W/ Shipping Next-Day.

[EDIT] Okay, So I finally had time to sit-down and read all the newer Posts. I've changed up the list a bit, after looking at the newer suggested items, and my items. On regards to Ram, I've always been told OCZ is top-quality. Is there any reason I shouldn't buy that set of Ram?

As for GPU's, I'm going with 2x285's. That's plenty, according to what I've been reading. Especially considering 1 of them, chews up and spits out Crysis.

Is an SSD not good for Gaming? Because a 120 G/b will hold everything I do, in about 60 G/b. But having that extra space is comforting. What would be the purpose of a smaller SSD, then buying a normal HDD, to go with it? All my Home Computer is for, is Gaming. Pretty much it.

For Cooling, WC is still an option, but unless really needed, I'll go with Air. I chose the Noctua, over the CM V10 after reading some Reviews.

Still looking for all the input I can receive. It looks almost finalized.

Elder III · Apr 02, 2009, 02:05 AM // 02:05

couple quick answers:

#1 - yes you can have to PCie x 16 cards in this machine with that mobo
#2 - those 2 cards in SLI should fit just fine, it's a Full Tower.. very roomy...
#3 - at resolutions of 1600x1200 or lower go with a 295 - anything higher than that = go with a pair of 285s.
#4 dunno
#5 dunno for sure, but I believe it is a littel faster - just don't quote me on it right now (too tired to find out more on it at this time either)
#6 Yes you should be fine, but for the money that you are already throwing into this I would get an aftermarket unit. (Zalman is good imo)

moriz · Apr 02, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

i'm pretty sure hyperthreading is an intel technology. you are probably thinking of hypertransport. however, a quick look through wiki suggests that it is actually slower than the latest hypertransport implementation. that of course, does not matter.

Burst Cancel · Apr 02, 2009, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Don't take this the wrong way, but it honestly looks like you just went out and picked expensive parts. Unfortunately, in computing you often don't get what you pay for, especially as you move up the performance scale. For instance ...

Were it not for gaming forums, I would never have believed that people could actually be duped into buying the $1k processors - especially in this generation. Bottom line: get a 920; the 965 is a complete waste of money. It's particularly true in your case, because you aren't overclocking - the main feature you're paying for in a Extreme Edition processor is an unlocked CPU multiplier, which ironically is only useful if you're overclocking. In short, you're paying an extra $700 for a feature you explicitly refuse to use.

Unless you have a huge number of apps, large SSDs are also a complete waste of money. SSDs should be used as the boot/application drive, not as a storage drive. Grab a (much) smaller SSD and invest the savings in a 1TB+ spindle drive or three. You'll also see generally higher performance from Intel SSDs than other brands, particularly in random read/write (the metric that really matters for an OS drive).

Questions 4 and 5 are kind of interesting, because they imply that you believe that the interconnect is actually a performance bottleneck. If I told you that QPI was slower than Hypertransport, would that change your buying decision? If so, why?

GT/s is a bandwidth-independent measure of transfer rate (GT = giga-transfers). It's analogous to the ops/s measurement for processors.

SLI'd 285s will generally outperform a single 295. What do you plan on playing that you think requires this performance, however? Honest question - some games just aren't very demanding (GW, for instance), and mid-tier cards are more than enough for those even at high resolutions.

Evil Genius · Apr 02, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

It's particularly true in your case, because you aren't overclocking - the main feature you're paying for in a Extreme Edition processor is an unlocked CPU multiplier, which ironically is only useful if you're overclocking.

To continue with this point if you do not intend to use a ss, cascade or liquid nitrogen then you do not need it.

Also considering your coming from a AMD Dual Core the Core i7 920 will seem fast enough.

Quote:

you'll also see generally higher performance from Intel SSDs than other brands, particularly in random read/write (the metric that really matters for an OS drive).

To continue with this point it would be a better idea to get the Intel X25-M and a fast normal HDD than the OCZ.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820167005
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136284

Lourens · Apr 02, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

I dont think you need that $1k processor for guildwars

SilvanNosty · Apr 02, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Don't take this the wrong way, but it honestly looks like you just went out and picked expensive parts. Unfortunately, in computing you often don't get what you pay for, especially as you move up the performance scale. For instance ...

Were it not for gaming forums, I would never have believed that people could actually be duped into buying the $1k processors - especially in this generation. Bottom line: get a 920; the 965 is a complete waste of money. It's particularly true in your case, because you aren't overclocking - the main feature you're paying for in a Extreme Edition processor is an unlocked CPU multiplier, which ironically is only useful if you're overclocking. In short, you're paying an extra $700 for a feature you explicitly refuse to use.

Unless you have a huge number of apps, large SSDs are also a complete waste of money. SSDs should be used as the boot/application drive, not as a storage drive. Grab a (much) smaller SSD and invest the savings in a 1TB+ spindle drive or three. You'll also see generally higher performance from Intel SSDs than other brands, particularly in random read/write (the metric that really matters for an OS drive).

Questions 4 and 5 are kind of interesting, because they imply that you believe that the interconnect is actually a performance bottleneck. If I told you that QPI was slower than Hypertransport, would that change your buying decision? If so, why?

GT/s is a bandwidth-independent measure of transfer rate (GT = giga-transfers). It's analogous to the ops/s measurement for processors.

SLI'd 285s will generally outperform a single 295. What do you plan on playing that you think requires this performance, however? Honest question - some games just aren't very demanding (GW, for instance), and mid-tier cards are more than enough for those even at high resolutions.

Why would I take it the wrong way? =P.

I know that the Extreme is basically made for OC'ing fanatics. Albeit, just 'cause I don't want to OC it, doesn't mean I don't want it =P. I've got extra money from my Income Tax, and I want a serious Computer. The reason I chose the 965, over the 940 or 920, was the speed of the QPI. Also, on your question about that, no it wouldn't. I was just interested in which one was the better Technology. In that department, it seems AMD is still ahead of Intel.

Okay, I've been looking a few things over. Still deciding between 2x285's or a 1x295. Also, I do play other games XD. A few I play a lot, other than GW are; Crysis, Combat Arms, Halo, and Farcry 2. Like I had stated, my Monitor is a 24". It's almost brand new, and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. So, on that note, I like 1600X1200 Resolution. Which Card(s) is better suited for this Resolution?

About the Drives, I was wondering which is better. I've been told SSD is better all around than any HDD on the Market. I'll be storing my Games and just a few other things than that. Like, Photoshop CS3, Print Shop 21, Epson/Epson Print CD, Nero, Dvd Fab, Dvd Shrink. Would an SSD or HDD be better for this? I don't particularly need the 250 G/b storage. I had a 120 on there first. If Intel really is a better one, I'll buy that one instead. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820167005 80 GB should be enough. I'm only using 79 now, and I've got some games and programs on here I haven't touched in 2 years. Like Diablo II/Diablo and WoW. So an 80 GB should be fine for me. Also, how can you setup the SSD and a HDD? Is it a Raid 0 setup? Is that the best performance setup to use?

The whole thing is, this Computer is one I'll be using for Years. So, in that aspect, the cost of it isn't that much. I also want it to be as good as I can. Which is why I'm asking for help. I've used my Dual for about 3 years now. Which will go to my younger brother (12).

Elder III · Apr 02, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Get the single 295 GPU..... that's my advice If you're asking about drives, I also like the idea of a smaller SSD for your boot disk and a HDD for storage needs. If you want RAID then get 2 HDDs (identical ones). If you really want to "waste" (a relative term but still valid here) some cash then get all SSD and 2 GPUS - but you don't need them. Save the money and take your wife/hubby/gf/bf on a romantic weekend getaway.

Lord Sojar · Apr 02, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

The QPI bandwidth is the same on the 920 and 940 production i7 chips as the 965. Intel did this due to the bad economy, to draw in more customers. The multiplier for the QPI is totally unlocked, and the 965 is, in fact, a total waste of money.

You have a 24" monitor, meaning its resolution is 1920x1200 or 1920x1080. Either card will run at that resolution without issues, but the policy for high resolution gaming is clear; higher resolution gaming is totally dependent on vRAM (all three aspects at that, including amount, speed, and bandwidth)

Only Intel's Enterprise series of SSDs are vastly superior to others on the market, thanks to some unique controllers and gate technology they are using (more specifically... well let's not get into that)

Second, you would NEVER want to RAID a HDD and an SSD together. That would be the world's largest bottleneck in history. Think of the SSD as a boy genius with an IQ of 220, and the HDD as a court jester with an IQ of 40; now put the two in a think tank.

Case in point is Intel vs OCZ. Both companies and churning out great SSDs. OCZ's new Vertex series are on par with Intel's lineup, but for a reduced cost.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227395

Honestly, I would go with that drive over the Intel for the sole reason of the extra 40GBs of storage space.

Back on the GPU topic. If you want my honest opinion on the matter... 2 GTX260s is the best choice at this point for the money, but won't offer near the performance of two GTX285s. The GTX295 will not outperform the 2xGTX285s in most scenarios. If you move into really high resolution scenarios, sure; simply because of vRAM.

Also, I feel compelled to comment on this overclocking issue.

You are going to buy a Corei7 processor and NOT OVERCLOCK IT? Umm... let me give you an example of what that would be like... I own a 2009 BMW M3. I drive my car. Let me elaborate; I redline shift, I accelerate very quickly, I take corners very fast and aggressively, I drive fast, I keep the engine at above 3K RPMs as much as I can. I let my car do what it was built to do, DRIVE. Driving isn't just taking the steering wheel in hand, avoiding accidents, and pushing 2 or 3 petals... that is motoring. Driving is what most people either can't do for the lack of a decent car, or won't do because they are idiots. You don't buy a high performance car and then motor like your grandmother; you drive the damn thing.

You are buying a Corei7 processor. It is meant to be overclocked. They are designed with that in mind; they are built to perform, not just to suffice. To not overclock a Corei7 is a sin, and if you have no intention of overclocking a hand built Corei7 PC, let me direct you elsewhere:

www.alienware.com
www.dell.com
www.hp.com
www.gateway.com

They can help you build a system that isn't made for overclocking. That way, you can do your computer daily activities without actually worrying about anything.

If you are going to build a PC, BUILD A PC. Don't pussy foot around with useless shit. It irks me that you even suggest you don't want to/are unwilling to try to overclock. Overclocking a Corei7 is not only very safe to do, but easy as pie. Honestly, a chimp could do it! To build a PC from scratch is already a bigger risk than overclocking. So, I would highly suggest you change that point of view, or you may end up like another one of those rich playboy idiots who buy Ferrari's and never drive them above 90MPH... which makes you a fool.

That is my input. Take it as you will, but at least you can't say a tech professional didn't weigh in his advice on the matter.

SilvanNosty · Apr 02, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

The QPI bandwidth is the same on the 920 and 940 production i7 chips as the 965. Intel did this due to the bad economy, to draw in more customers. The multiplier for the QPI is totally unlocked, and the 965 is, in fact, a total waste of money.

You have a 24" monitor, meaning its resolution is 1920x1200 or 1920x1080. Either card will run at that resolution without issues, but the policy for high resolution gaming is clear; higher resolution gaming is totally dependent on vRAM (all three aspects at that, including amount, speed, and bandwidth)

Only Intel's Enterprise series of SSDs are vastly superior to others on the market, thanks to some unique controllers and gate technology they are using (more specifically... well let's not get into that)

Second, you would NEVER want to RAID a HDD and an SSD together. That would be the world's largest bottleneck in history. Think of the SSD as a boy genius with an IQ of 220, and the HDD as a court jester with an IQ of 40; now put the two in a think tank.

Case in point is Intel vs OCZ. Both companies and churning out great SSDs. OCZ's new Vertex series are on par with Intel's lineup, but for a reduced cost.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227395

Honestly, I would go with that drive over the Intel for the sole reason of the extra 40GBs of storage space.

Back on the GPU topic. If you want my honest opinion on the matter... 2 GTX260s is the best choice at this point for the money, but won't offer near the performance of two GTX285s. The GTX295 will not outperform the 2xGTX285s in most scenarios. If you move into really high resolution scenarios, sure; simply because of vRAM.

Also, I feel compelled to comment on this overclocking issue.

You are going to buy a Corei7 processor and NOT OVERCLOCK IT? Umm... let me give you an example of what that would be like... I own a 2009 BMW M3. I drive my car. Let me elaborate; I redline shift, I accelerate very quickly, I take corners very fast and aggressively, I drive fast, I keep the engine at above 3K RPMs as much as I can. I let my car do what it was built to do, DRIVE. Driving isn't just taking the steering wheel in hand, avoiding accidents, and pushing 2 or 3 petals... that is motoring. Driving is what most people either can't do for the lack of a decent car, or won't do because they are idiots. You don't buy a high performance car and then motor like your grandmother; you drive the damn thing.

You are buying a Corei7 processor. It is meant to be overclocked. They are designed with that in mind; they are built to perform, not just to suffice. To not overclock a Corei7 is a sin, and if you have no intention of overclocking a hand built Corei7 PC, let me direct you elsewhere:

www.alienware.com
www.dell.com
www.hp.com
www.gateway.com

They can help you build a system that isn't made for overclocking. That way, you can do your computer daily activities without actually worrying about anything.

If you are going to build a PC, BUILD A PC. Don't pussy foot around with useless shit. It irks me that you even suggest you don't want to/are unwilling to try to overclock. Overclocking a Corei7 is not only very safe to do, but easy as pie. Honestly, a chimp could do it! To build a PC from scratch is already a bigger risk than overclocking. So, I would highly suggest you change that point of view, or you may end up like another one of those rich playboy idiots who buy Ferrari's and never drive them above 90MPH... which makes you a fool.

That is my input. Take it as you will, but at least you can't say a tech professional didn't weigh in his advice on the matter.

After reading this...novel. I changed my SSD back to the 120 G/b OCZ. It's a little cheaper than the Intel. Reviews on it seem to be good, too. I don't have super amounts of things to Store. On a new Drive, I'll most likely only use up to 60 G/bs.

I probably won't SLI 2x285's, but my listed 285 is the one I will use.

Elaborate on OC'ing it please. How much of a performance boost is it @ 4.0? At that Speed, what's the Temp like? I highly doubt the Stock cooling is enough. Do you have a recommended Air cooler, or should I go with Liquid cooling? As long as it's safe, I'll keep it in mind.

I like your Car. I own a Mercedes SL55. My Wife owns a VW Passat CC. Neither of us "Drive" like you, but we gettem up and go =p.

BTW; I dislike those furry fapping mongrels at Dell. I wouldn't buy anything from them. I did buy my Laptop from Gateway though =P.

Elder III · Apr 02, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

says they got a 965 to 4 ghz on stock cooling here.... temp. graphs and all too.

http://www.tbreak.com/articles/13/1/...ing/Page1.html

Also there are claims that the 975 reached 5.26 ghz (stable) which sounds insane if it's true...... :s

Evil Genius · Apr 03, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elder III

says they got a 965 to 4 ghz on stock cooling here.... temp. graphs and all too.

http://www.tbreak.com/articles/13/1/...ing/Page1.html

Also there are claims that the 975 reached 5.26 ghz (stable) which sounds insane if it's true...... :s

It would be a better idea to look at user experience on a popular hardware forum for Core i7 overclocking results and discussion. I would link to OCAU's 27 page thread but only members can view.

On OCAU most people use the Thermalright 120 Ultra Extreme.

You could look at watercooling too:
Swiftech MCP655 12v DC Pump - with Speed Controller
Apogee GTZ waterblock with bracket
Swiftech MCRES Micro Revision 2 reservoir

Radiator could be Swiftech or given your large budget, Thermochill. Thermochill rads are the best in the world.

Lord Sojar · Apr 03, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Good air cooling will more that suffice for a Corei7 OC.

Here are some great options:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835702007

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835608007 (install can be tedious, but it cools very well)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16835103056 (expensive, but probably the best air cooling solution available. CoolerMaster knows their stuff, and the V10 shows it)

As for the rest of my advice... well, here is the build I think you should put together. (excluding the cooler, as that is your choice)

Case:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119138
Simply put, it puts the Antec 1200 to shame. Spend the little extra for a big improvement.

Motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813186163
Update the BIOS first thing, and prepare for the most powerful motherboard on the planet. Even puts eVGA (my favorite company) to shame. With its huge price drop recently, it is a no brainer buy.

CPU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115202
You will get nearly the same results as the Extreme Edition, and the QPI is identical, TRUST ME.

RAM:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148252
You want a class A machine? Crucial is a purest company, using only the best Micron fabs available. While Micron may be bad for SSDs, they are superior for RAM. Don't touch Corsair if you want a bleeding edge PC. The new DDR3-1600 Ballistix series are the best modules available.

GPU x2:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130446
Two of these coupled with that memory and motherboard = unstoppable

PSU:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817814012
Corsair PSUs are for budget builds. They provide excellent performance, quality, and reliability in their price bracket and market segment. However, they are not made for extreme builds. ABS's Tagan BZ series is, period. This powersupply may cost more, but it will run laps around anything else.

OS Boot HDD:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227393
Update the firmware before you install anything. Small, yes. Fast, hell yes. You don't need a big drive for just your OS and primary programs. 30GB is plenty.

Game Installation HDD:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822116058
SAS puts SataII to shame. Your Bloodrage just happens to feature 2 SAS ports with an excellent SAS controller. Wonder how that happened...

Storage HDD:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136319
You said you don't that much storage, so this Caviar Black drive should do perfectly at 640MB.

So, throw in the cooler of your choice, build, and that is the end of this fairytale. The PC above will rip apart anything you can throw at it. Run out of processing power? Use CUDA and accelerate everything.

Oh, and if you are wondering in advance...

Grand Total: $2,511.15 (that includes shipping, but doesn't include the cooler, the disk drive [Blu-Ray or DVDRW is up to you] or thermal compound, which clearly is like another 200 bucks max [and that is assuming you go with a BluRay ROM/DVDRW combo drive]... so meh)

refer · Apr 03, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

you may end up like another one of those rich playboy idiots who buy Ferrari's and never drive them above 90MPH... which makes you a fool.

Where would you find a place that lets you drive 90MPH in the first place? Oh and looks... why do you think elite armor exists?

Lord Sojar · Apr 04, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

Where would you find a place that lets you drive 90MPH in the first place? Oh and looks... why do you think elite armor exists?

Legally? Montana. Illegally? Anywhere; and fashion =/= viability. You don't spend 1000+ dollars on a CPU to have people look at it, since... well... They can't see it. So, if it is vanity you are going for, get a really nice PC case and mod it until your eyes bleed. That is vanity; 1000 dollar processor for little to no OCing is...well not.

Burst Cancel · Apr 04, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

A few disagreements/amendments with Rahja's recommendations:
- HAF 932 for case; excellent for WC (no modding required) if you eventually decide to go that route, excellent stock airflow. Aesthetics are hit-or-miss, especially compared to the Cosmos.
- Most of the X58 mobos are similar at a given price point. That said, the usual recommendation is DFI for overclocking and eVGA Classified or Asus WS Revolution for features.
- Do not overpay for memory. Memory bandwidth is not a performance bottleneck on i7 systems, and the CPU limits the overclock. You can grab 6GB of DDR3 1600 for ~$150 now; there's no need to pay more than that.
- Corsair PSUs are great even for "extreme" builds, whatever that means. Grab the Tagan if you want to overpay for bling, or buy a Corsair, PCP&P, Seasonic, etc. if you just want quality at a lower price.
- Rather than going with SAS drives, I'd just buy a couple Vertex SSDs and RAID them. Better performance, lower power draw, lower noise. Frees up your motherboard choices too, since you don't need an SAS controller anymore.

OCing on i7 systems is easy. If you're really nervous about damaging your parts, leave the voltages alone; the i7s still have headroom at stock volts. For many people, OCing an i7 system amounts to adjusting a few settings in BIOS (HT on or off, Turbo off, bclk++), and it's literally free performance. The really irritating part about OCing isn't damage to parts, but testing for stability (easy, with the tools we have nowadays, but time-consuming nevertheless).

Elder III · Apr 04, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Legally? Montana. Illegally? Anywhere; and fashion =/= viability. You don't spend 1000+ dollars on a CPU to have people look at it, since... well... They can't see it. So, if it is vanity you are going for, get a really nice PC case and mod it until your eyes bleed. That is vanity; 1000 dollar processor for little to no OCing is...well not.

All you need to drive 90mph is an open road and some horsepower under the hood.

I agree on the CPU - nobody sees it, unless you have a big window in your case and mount it on the top of your desk so that you can stare into it while trolling the intrawebz.... ??

Lord Sojar · Apr 04, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Burst, read up on the BloodRage. Trust me, it is a server motherboard converted into a desktop board for good reason. It really makes the Corei7 worth it.